Talk:Nazi salute

Include Elon Musk using the Nazi salute?

This might be good for a modern example of the salute being used. https://static.independent.co.uk/2025/01/20/20/SEI236719251.jpg?quality=75&width=1250&crop=3%3A2%2Csmart&auto=webp — Preceding unsigned comment added by SlapperDapper (talk • contribs) 20:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Clear cut example. Needs to be added. 2601:8C1:8280:410:D139:9A48:2620:CEFE (talk) 05:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I by no means support Elon. But his gesture isn't a proper Nazi salute. In almost all pictures from Nazi Germany, where the salute is done, the extended hand is pointing to the direction of the chest of the saluter. Elon's salute was pointing quite a bit sideways.

I think it is inspired by the Nazi salute but it isn't the same. Tommuli (talk) 06:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Please look at the references in the article, the salutes have been described by several reliable sources as looking like fascist or Nazi salutes. —Paul1337 (talk) 06:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Looking like a nazi salute does not make it one. 2003:D7:2F37:1500:FD97:BDE1:5932:9136 (talk) 06:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it intentionally looks like a Nazi salute but is technically not it for plausible deniability.

The viewer is meant to think thst it's a Nazi salute, while Elon can say that it's a salute he himself invented that just so happens to look like the Nazi salute. Tommuli (talk) 06:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

It is obviously a Nazi salute by the ADL definition of Nazi salute. "It consists of raising an outstretched right arm with the palm down."[1] It is also obviously a Nazi salute according to actual expert and historian Ruth Ben-Ghiat.[2]

The weaselly wording of the current description should be replaced by the much simpler claim that Musk performed the Nazi salute repeatedly. 85.230.209.100 (talk) 08:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

This being a Nazi salute is very obviously a badly staged defamation attempt. 2001:1620:906:0:814F:36C6:8EA3:321A (talk) 12:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

ADL doesn’t agree this was a Nazi salute.

https://x.com/ADL/status/1881474892022919403 75.73.191.78 (talk) 15:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The way this is being addressed currently makes sense, although more sources are probably needed. While it matches the definition of a Nazi salute according to the ADL, the ADL currently disagrees, which might belong in the article (whether you agree or not.) Right now the article says "viewers and commentators" but should be expanded to say politicians and historians. I can make that edit if people agree. Dflovett (talk) 19:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The ADL is not a very credible organization. Say one word about the ongoing slaughter in Gaza and they call you an antisemite. Elon gives an obvious Seig Hiel 3 times and they come to his defense. 2603:8081:8700:2732:24FB:17D6:8D0B:18D2 (talk) 21:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The ADL Is considered reliable by Wikipedia in this instance. see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. At the moment the General consensus on Elon musk's Wikipedia page seems to be that we should not directly say this is a Nazi salute. But rather say that it has been described as such by Various groups and persons. Zyxrq (talk) 02:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It's better to allow the reader to come to their own conclusion in this instance. So I'm not sure if it's appropriate to have the gesture Elon Musk did on this page. Zyxrq (talk) 03:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

By that definition, doing a dab is a type of Nazi solute The truth winged messenger (talk) 00:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed The truth winged messenger (talk) 00:23, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

bellany salut, 1942 chnged to my heart going out to you. flag codex. you are not from england, you are from roma, you occupa all world. gute nacht 79.117.101.41 (talk) 03:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

This action appears to be similar to a Bellamy salute and I made an edit to include this incident on the Bellamy salute Wikipedia page. I included necessary sources including a link to a news report of the incident along with footage of him doing it. I also included the ADL's statement that it doesn't appear to be a Nazi salute and Elon's seeming admission of making a mistake and thanking the ADL for clarifying his blunder. Lsullivan1101 (talk) 03:19, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

On the wiki page it states that Elon did the salute as he said "my heart goes out to you" but he very much said it after he did the full gesture twice before saying that. [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1g3OAMXyYw Smjorfluga (talk) 19:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The immediate inclusion of the nazi salute suggestion in wikipedia, right after Trump was inaugurated as 47th U.S. president, with a clear suggestion in favor of this interpretation rather than benefit of the doubt, is for me one confirmation too much of a vehement hard-left bias among the Wikipedia admins. Bernard.Libbrecht (talk) 19:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Many of the people in this Talk page are not editors (look at all the IP addresses in here) and I don't know that any of the editors in here are admins. You are specifically replying to a user named SlapperDapper who is definitely not an admin and has made a total of 8 edits. That editor has made so few edits that they can't edit this semi-protected page. So I'm not sure how anything in this article or talk page confirms "a vehement hard-left bias among the Wikipedia admins." Dflovett (talk) 20:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

no redirect for houthis

There is no redirect to the Houthis wiki page when it mentions them doing the salute. I've only recently used Wikipedia as anything more than an encyclopedia, so excuse me if I am misusing the talk page or something.

Edit: Just did something about it, not really sure what is going to happen now, but here we go. CeasefireNow (talk) 02:07, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

"Heil mein Führer!" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Heil mein Führer! has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 17 § Heil mein Führer! until a consensus is reached. Deauthorized. ^(talk) 16:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2024

There is a typo under the Houthi movement section. "Tslogan" should be corrected to "slogan". 148.252.146.187 (talk) 21:16, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done Skynxnex (talk) 22:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

This description is not correct

The hand starts from your side not your shoulder 2601:408:4201:6040:45DD:F2D8:5927:19ED (talk) 00:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2025

Please Change X - The salute is performed by extending the right arm from the shoulder into the air with a straightened hand.

To Y - The salute is performed by extending the right arm from the body side into the air with a straightened hand. 80.42.87.170 (talk) 10:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: The current version is more correct to me but if others disagree I'm happy for the change to happen. Ultraodan (talk) 11:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Should Musk be mentioned in both Post-1945 and "in popular culture"?

Right now, the Musk salute incident is included in both Post-1945 and "In popular culture", which is resulting in the page giving somewhat contradictory info. Dflovett (talk) 19:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

p.s. I also don't think that Musk belongs "in popular culture". The other two examples are fictional in that section. Dflovett (talk) 19:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah. If it belongs in the article at all it should not be in that section. It's not popular culture. It's not a joke. It is the actual American government in actual real life. We don't have to reproduce the obviously insincere framing that is being put on it by his apologists. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

ok thanks for affirming my thoughts on this. Dflovett (talk) 19:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I just moved it to the proper section. Musk is not some fictional character.Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

There was still an issue of two separate sections, so I condensed them into one. Dflovett (talk) 22:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

elon

its bellany flag codex 1942 changed to my heart going out to you, elon musk not sig hail, teach your history 79.117.101.41 (talk) 03:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

RfC on Elon's gesture

Should we include Elon Musk's gesture?

Yes or no? Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 05:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi. I've converted this for now from an Rfc to standard discussion, per WP:RFCBEFORE. Since this literally just happened, evidently there has been no Wikipedia discussion yet about this, let alone lengthy, unresolved or deadlocked discussion. Let's see how it goes here, and then if needed an Rfc can be started later. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 06:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

My answer is no, it should not be included. I doubt that it will have long-term significance on the salute, but obviously I don't have a crystal ball. Many people including myself do not believe that it was a salute. It was a gesture by someone who moves his arms around a lot in these rallies and was probably an accident. I even think that it potentially has BLP problems for it to be listed on the Nazi salute article when it was probably something completely innocent.

It is already covered on the article Elon Musk and we might want to add it to Second inauguration of Donald Trump although I'm on the fence with that one. At some point we might want to create an article about controversies involving Elon Musk which may be a better place for these types of things.―Panamitsu (talk) 08:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

If this page includes minor scandals involving high school students, then it absolutely needs to include a salute that was interpreted as a Nazi salute by the world's richest man on the public stage. Dflovett (talk) 10:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Well in those cases, either the students were doing a Nazi salute on purpose, or the photographer told them to do the salute. In this case Musk made a gesture that some (not all) people have interpreted as being a salute. ―Panamitsu (talk) 11:12, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

By the way saying that just because the article contains minor controversies involving students doing the salute it doesn't mean that this article can include the Musk incident as we could decide that it is worth removing the student incidents too. See WP:OTHERCONTENT. ―Panamitsu (talk) 11:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a valid point about how the article can be edited more. Ultimately, I think that we have to try to stay impartial on this. You've made it clear that you don't personally consider this to be "a salute" and that it was "innocent". I don't know what Musk's intentions were, but it looked like a Nazi salute to a lot of people and a lot of coverage is out there referring to it as "a Nazi salute". I think the article currently does a good job of depicting the three reactions (angry people calling it a Nazi salute; defensive people saying it wasn't; Neo-Nazis celebrating it as a Nazi salute). I agree that we don't know the long-term significance but for now, it makes sense to keep it, as it's one of the largest stories in the United States right now and is receiving worldwide coverage. I like your idea of an eventual "Controversies" article specific to Musk. I am also unsure about whether or not it belongs on the Inauguration page. Dflovett (talk) 12:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

(summoned by bot). I see this is no longer an RfC, but for what it's worth, this seems to be a textbook case of recentism that seems unlikely to pass the ten year test. It's quite reminiscent of the JD Vance couch stuff from last summer, which featured a flurry of eager hit pieces with approximately zero lasting significance. This page covers a hundred years of history. What happened in the last 24 hours is extremely unlikely to be due. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 14:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

No. it was not a nazi salute, as per ADL, a fully reliable mainstream source.

• ref: ADL says ‘awkward’ Musk gesture ‘not a Nazi salute’: ‘This is a delicate moment’, - 01/21/25.
• from Elon Musk Comments on Controversial Clip of Him Giving a Straight-Arm Salute
  • Eyal Yakoby, a University of Pennsylvania graduate who campaigned against antisemitism on college campuses, called it “a stupid hand gesture” in a post on X, adding: “Anyone trying to portray him as a Nazi is intentionally misleading the public.” ...Aaron Astor, a history professor at Maryville College in Tennessee, posted: “This is a socially awkward autistic man’s wave to the crowd where he says ‘my heart goes out to you.’” (Musk has previously disclosed that he has Asperger’s syndrome, also known as autism spectrum disorder.) Newsweek opinion editor Batya Ungar-Sargon offered a similar explanation, adding: “We don’t need to invent outrage.” Sm8900 (talk) 15:19, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Absolutely not; it is in no way a significant enough aspect to the topic of the nazi salute to be included in this article. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 15:23, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The article currently includes many incidents in the "Post-1945" section that are potentially not significant. Perhaps there should be a separate article that incorporates everything post '45? Dflovett (talk) 17:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Not to include. As musk denies this was a Nazi salute and many experts agree with him then in the history of the concept of Nazi salute this incident will probably have no lasting significance. Vegan416 (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Many experts agree, while many other experts disagree. Dflovett (talk) 17:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• As Dflovett says, if we're talking about high-school students, then we can talk about the richest man on Earth. If it wasn't for Musk goose-stepping around the place for the past couple of years, it would be a nothing story, but he has been doing, which is why it's been talked about. Support the inclusion. Sceptre (talk) 17:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thank you, I concur. Note that the Elon Musk article includes a section on "Accusations of antisemitism" and "Views of Elon Musk" includes a section on "Race and white nationalism", so it's not like this is the first Nazi-adjacent incident involving the guy. Dflovett (talk) 19:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  That is just opinion and zero argument. Bernard.Libbrecht (talk) 19:29, 22 January 2025 (UTC)